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Talk:Paper Mario
The Paper Mario thread needs to be reconsidered to at least bring him up to tier 2-A. Here are a couple reasons why... #Paper Mario has taken on the Shadow Queen, Count Bleck, Culex and Super Dimentio who have exhibited anywhere to universal - multiversal power. #Paper Mario has literally overcome omnipotence. The Star Spirits are capable of granting any wish (Basic omnipotence) and were still unable to negate the power of the star rod (which can grant omnipotence) yet Mario eventually overcame omnipotent Bowser and regained the Star Rod. #Paper Mario at any point can be granted power of the Star Rod which grants any wish. MagicalLights (talk) 18:33, March 8, 2017 (UTC)MagicalLights :Said multiversal power was 2-B, and that's not omnipotence it's just reality warping on a high level. Promestein (talk) 18:34, March 8, 2017 (UTC) :You can't "overcome" omnipotence, if its truly omnipotent in the first place, then its utterly impossible to do any form of harm against it, no matter how slight or major. --''Darkanine. Feel free to send me a message! '' 18:49, March 8, 2017 (UTC) :First of all, I'm well aware that multiversal power is tier 2-B yet that would only be relavant if I was suggesting that Mario's destructive capability peaks at Multi Verse Level which it doesn't. Also, what I mean by "overcoming" omnipotence is that he was able to defeat someone who at the time was capable of omnipotence. i understand you're point that you can't defeat an omnipotent but the problem is, you can. The only way to do so is with omnipotence (like fighting fire with fire). This is why threads like TOAA vs. The Presence, exist. Mario beat omnipotent Bowser (with star rod) by harnessing the power of the Star Spirits. Remember, they alone were unable to do so and now, he has access to the star rod. Ps. I appreciate the comments and discussion and look forward to your response. : :No. True omnipotence cannot be beaten. This here is just some level of reality warping. Promestein (talk) 20:09, March 8, 2017 (UTC) :If an unstoppable force was to hit an immovable object, then a reaction MUST occur. By your logic, there would either be no reaction or either the force or object is not unstoppable/immovable respectively. In a battle of omnipotents, either one of two things are apparent... either we have a winnere or we end up with a paradox and if the latter were true, then feats of characters like Spawn or Odin would be nonsensical rubbish. :When it comes to true omnipotence, we cannot determine what would happen. It's beyond our understanding. It's why 1-A and up matches are banned. Spawn and Odin are not omnipotent. You seem to have no understanding of our system. Promestein (talk) 20:19, March 8, 2017 (UTC) :Forgive me, I'm new here. That may explain why I was confused when everybody just flocked to the tier rating on versus threads to decide the winner (even if it isn't the most efficient way). Now, i see that you went with the paradox opinion in regards to Omnipotence. I also never stated that Spawn and Odin are omnipotent (although the creators at Marvel have stated that Odin is omnipotent even though he has been beaten). In regards to Spawn, the point I was trying to make was that he has defeated a supposed omnipotent. But I'll just set that point aside as it generates far too much speculation and ultimately will lead to a paradox. The point is, a rod that can grant any and every wish includes omnipotence as well. Mario is currently in possession of it. I'm not saying he is omnipotent but I don't see why he isn't at least tier 2-A. He fits the bill wherever he must. That was my only intention for this thread. Sorry if my naivety towards your system is a hindrance to you and I being on the same page in this regard. :Why do you keep bringing up 2-A? Nothing in what you said is 2-A. Also, claiming that a wish can give you true omnipotence is an outright "non-limit fallacy". You're assuming far high power level than said wishes demonstrated Saikou The Lewd King (talk) 21:52, March 8, 2017 (UTC) :2 A is described as belonging to characters capable of creating or destroying a supposedly infinite number of sessions or dimensions and Mario has beaten beings with that power. Plus, the star spirits are the gods of paper mario and are capable of granting any wish yet they couldn't negate the star rods power. You're supposed "non limit fallacy" is useless in this case. :Here is why this makes no sense - let's say that I'm debating Doomsday. We know for a fact that Doomsday have both adaptive and regenerative abilities, that you can't kill him this same way twice, that he always will come back to life, and that over time, he is becoming more and more invulnerable. Now, someone could use this no limit fallacy, and claim that, only because we never seen boundaries of Doomsday's ability to adapt, that doesn't mean that he's regenerative and adaptive abilities have no boundaries! Well, ladies and gentlemen the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, so if you claim that - for example - Doomsday's abilities have boundaries, and that something indeed can permanently kill him, then you must prove it, otherwise it's safe to say that Doomsday will always come back to :(Saikou) Mario has never faced anyone of that power. :The thing is that it's not how it works. Any such statements as "limitless" or "without boundaries" only apply to the original verse (even then, it's often hyperbolic). We can't use it to ridiculously upgrade a character just to fit one hyperbolic statement. :Being able to make wishes or even just being considered "gods" is absolutely meaningless. It just proves that said character is far above the other characters in the verse. :If you actually checked Doomsday's page, we actually have limits for his regeneration and adaption. The concept of NLF is a deeply rooted rule of our system. We certainly won't break it here just to baselessly upgrade Mario. Saikou The Lewd King (talk) 00:22, March 9, 2017 (UTC) I would very much like to see Paper Mario in Tier 2-A, but honestly, not with those reasons... Shadow Queen never exhibited universal power. Count Bleck and Dimentio are already as Multiversals. Star Rod does not provide Omnipotence. If he did, Bowser with the Star Rod would not have been defeated, and nothing could overtake him. His argument about being Omnipotent is destroyed in his other argument about being defeated. Either you are Omnipotent or you are defeated. Choose one, why can not you be both. Paper Mario only came to get Star Rod, but he never got to use it. Even if it provided Omnipotence (which does not happen), it does not mean anything to Paper Mario. Star Spirits are guardians of an area (currently the supreme authority on the verse is The Gentle Pull, an EXTREMELY vague being). Also, nothing that the Star Spirits showed did not even reach the universal power level to be considered something of the level you said. Exactly, the burden of proof is yours, because it was you who said this: If you can prove that Marioverse has infinite universes, fine. Until then.... ~Kevyn Souza (talk) 19:27, March 9, 2017 (UTC)